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	<title>Comments on: No DMCA Protection For You</title>
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	<link>http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/2010/05/11/no-dmca-protection-for-you/</link>
	<description>Where Software Meets Law</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 13 May 2010 21:13:52 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: A Viacom-Google perben újraírnák a DMCA-t &#124; Kalózpárt</title>
		<link>http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/2010/05/11/no-dmca-protection-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>A Viacom-Google perben újraírnák a DMCA-t &#124; Kalózpárt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 May 2010 21:13:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/?p=199#comment-49</guid>
		<description>[...] Lawdeveloper cikk [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Lawdeveloper cikk [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Burch</title>
		<link>http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/2010/05/11/no-dmca-protection-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-48</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Burch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 22:38:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/?p=199#comment-48</guid>
		<description>The most misleading thing in the brief is the contention that Google sits idly by while the copyright holder does all of the work tracking down infringing content. This is not true. Google does it&#039;s best to find and alert copyright holders that their content is on YouTube. 
&lt;br&gt;
A difference between networks and YouTube is that networks purchase the programming and claim copyright (or a license to the copyright) over it before they air. YouTube doesn&#039;t claim to own the videos on the site. They provide a way for content owners to display their content.
&lt;br&gt;
I disagree with you about for-profit as well, but the idea that by adding advertisement in the video makes them active is interesting. I don&#039;t think that Google actually changes the video, the advertisements are superimposed. I don&#039;t know if that makes a difference or not. I do know that they try to parse the video so that they can show the best ads, translate, etc.. 
&lt;br&gt;
At the end of the day though, Google provides the tools. Just like an ISP, they don&#039;t provide the content, the users do. The only difference between Google and an ISP is that Google uses advertising to make money instead of subscriptions. I seriously doubt that the court or the legislature intended the DMCA safe harbors to apply depending on the payment model.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The most misleading thing in the brief is the contention that Google sits idly by while the copyright holder does all of the work tracking down infringing content. This is not true. Google does it&#8217;s best to find and alert copyright holders that their content is on YouTube.<br />
<br />
A difference between networks and YouTube is that networks purchase the programming and claim copyright (or a license to the copyright) over it before they air. YouTube doesn&#8217;t claim to own the videos on the site. They provide a way for content owners to display their content.<br />
<br />
I disagree with you about for-profit as well, but the idea that by adding advertisement in the video makes them active is interesting. I don&#8217;t think that Google actually changes the video, the advertisements are superimposed. I don&#8217;t know if that makes a difference or not. I do know that they try to parse the video so that they can show the best ads, translate, etc..<br />
<br />
At the end of the day though, Google provides the tools. Just like an ISP, they don&#8217;t provide the content, the users do. The only difference between Google and an ISP is that Google uses advertising to make money instead of subscriptions. I seriously doubt that the court or the legislature intended the DMCA safe harbors to apply depending on the payment model.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael S.</title>
		<link>http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/2010/05/11/no-dmca-protection-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-47</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 21:43:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/?p=199#comment-47</guid>
		<description>I disagree. Your argument is a practical one, not a legal one. I don&#039;t really see a causal chain in your post that says why the brief is misleading. You just disagree with it — in fact, Safe Harbor really does place the responsibility of defending one&#039;s copyrights specifically on the producer, and Viacom&#039;s hypocrisy is really not relevant to the point. YouTube / Google could make money off of someone&#039;s work illegally for years, and the DMCA as currently interpreted would prevent me from recouping these profits if I somehow discovered in 3 years later. It makes me actively police YouTube to make sure they don&#039;t have my content, which is absolutely insane.

Oppositely, broadcasters such as NBC etc have a duty to establish the copyright status of the work they broadcast before they broadcast — one does not broadcast a copyrighted song unless positive one has cleared the rights and paid the appropriate fees. If they did not, they would be sued and heavily penalized both to compensate and to encourage proper behavior in the future.

YouTube etc... currently have no such restriction and are immune from litigation. All that is required them is to stop distributing, even if they have distributed many many times and generated revenue. Interestingly, they advertise themselves as a Broadcaster, and are for all intents and purposes, no different than a cable channel. This places traditional media channels at an unfair competitive disadvantage.  Of course I agree with your assertion that it is impractical for YouTube to check the copyright status of each video uploaded; but your argument is predicated on the idea that YouTube has a right to exist. Perhaps the idea of a for-profit video hosting site is simply untenable, and all site&#039;s should be forced to become non-profits, or terminated. Perhaps there is a societal benefit to allowing this to continue, but I guess that&#039;s the Supreme Court&#039;s call — I&#039;m no lawyer but I half wonder if there&#039;s some form of constitutional claim against the current interpretation of Safe Harbor (ie government taking of private property without compensation).

I have for a long time thought site&#039;s like Google / YouTube do not qualify for Safe Harbor for basic definitional reasons — I haven&#039;t read the exact language in a while, but for example, by adding branding and advertising to any video posted as well as the general interface for the site, YouTube is not transmitting the data unmodified as called for in the Safe Harbor provision. It is incredibly difficult to argue that I somehow requested an ad for whatever YouTube etc attempts to serve me, when I click on a link for a Keyboard Cat video. I requested Keyboard Cat and YouTube modified the data.

It sort of escapes me how this has gone on until now, and that the courts seem to have chosen to interpret the Safe Harbor provisions so loosely.

I&#039;m not really advocating the behavior of the RIAA, MPAA, or anyone else connected to big content or big media, I just think that its time to start realizing that the big reason web services companies have been so successfully disruptive to traditional media and content organizations, is because they haven&#039;t been paying the true cost of doing business, and have been playing by a totally different set of rules, often externalizing costs traditional brick and mortar shops would have onto content producers, broadband providers, and consumers.

Google applies Safe Harbor / Machine exemption as its response to everything; their entire business model is based on it, and its truly insane. Granted I don&#039;t expect it to change, but the law was really not intended for that; it was to shield infrastructure level network operators and providers, not top-layer web applications.

Just my two cents...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree. Your argument is a practical one, not a legal one. I don&#8217;t really see a causal chain in your post that says why the brief is misleading. You just disagree with it — in fact, Safe Harbor really does place the responsibility of defending one&#8217;s copyrights specifically on the producer, and Viacom&#8217;s hypocrisy is really not relevant to the point. YouTube / Google could make money off of someone&#8217;s work illegally for years, and the DMCA as currently interpreted would prevent me from recouping these profits if I somehow discovered in 3 years later. It makes me actively police YouTube to make sure they don&#8217;t have my content, which is absolutely insane.</p>
<p>Oppositely, broadcasters such as NBC etc have a duty to establish the copyright status of the work they broadcast before they broadcast — one does not broadcast a copyrighted song unless positive one has cleared the rights and paid the appropriate fees. If they did not, they would be sued and heavily penalized both to compensate and to encourage proper behavior in the future.</p>
<p>YouTube etc&#8230; currently have no such restriction and are immune from litigation. All that is required them is to stop distributing, even if they have distributed many many times and generated revenue. Interestingly, they advertise themselves as a Broadcaster, and are for all intents and purposes, no different than a cable channel. This places traditional media channels at an unfair competitive disadvantage.  Of course I agree with your assertion that it is impractical for YouTube to check the copyright status of each video uploaded; but your argument is predicated on the idea that YouTube has a right to exist. Perhaps the idea of a for-profit video hosting site is simply untenable, and all site&#8217;s should be forced to become non-profits, or terminated. Perhaps there is a societal benefit to allowing this to continue, but I guess that&#8217;s the Supreme Court&#8217;s call — I&#8217;m no lawyer but I half wonder if there&#8217;s some form of constitutional claim against the current interpretation of Safe Harbor (ie government taking of private property without compensation).</p>
<p>I have for a long time thought site&#8217;s like Google / YouTube do not qualify for Safe Harbor for basic definitional reasons — I haven&#8217;t read the exact language in a while, but for example, by adding branding and advertising to any video posted as well as the general interface for the site, YouTube is not transmitting the data unmodified as called for in the Safe Harbor provision. It is incredibly difficult to argue that I somehow requested an ad for whatever YouTube etc attempts to serve me, when I click on a link for a Keyboard Cat video. I requested Keyboard Cat and YouTube modified the data.</p>
<p>It sort of escapes me how this has gone on until now, and that the courts seem to have chosen to interpret the Safe Harbor provisions so loosely.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not really advocating the behavior of the RIAA, MPAA, or anyone else connected to big content or big media, I just think that its time to start realizing that the big reason web services companies have been so successfully disruptive to traditional media and content organizations, is because they haven&#8217;t been paying the true cost of doing business, and have been playing by a totally different set of rules, often externalizing costs traditional brick and mortar shops would have onto content producers, broadband providers, and consumers.</p>
<p>Google applies Safe Harbor / Machine exemption as its response to everything; their entire business model is based on it, and its truly insane. Granted I don&#8217;t expect it to change, but the law was really not intended for that; it was to shield infrastructure level network operators and providers, not top-layer web applications.</p>
<p>Just my two cents&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Links 12/5/2010: New KDE Menubars; GTK+ 3.0 Test; 2010 Fedora Scholarship &#124; Techrights</title>
		<link>http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/2010/05/11/no-dmca-protection-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-46</link>
		<dc:creator>Links 12/5/2010: New KDE Menubars; GTK+ 3.0 Test; 2010 Fedora Scholarship &#124; Techrights</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 21:27:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/?p=199#comment-46</guid>
		<description>[...] No DMCA Protection For You I have previously written about the Viacom v. YouTube case here and here. Ben Sheffner has an update that points to the Washington Legal Foundation amicus brief in the case. This brief, unlike the other brief mentioned in the article, deals not with the facts in this case, but rather with whether sites like YouTube should be afforded DMCA Safe Harbor protection at all. The brief is incredibly misleading, even for a Washington-based company. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] No DMCA Protection For You I have previously written about the Viacom v. YouTube case here and here. Ben Sheffner has an update that points to the Washington Legal Foundation amicus brief in the case. This brief, unlike the other brief mentioned in the article, deals not with the facts in this case, but rather with whether sites like YouTube should be afforded DMCA Safe Harbor protection at all. The brief is incredibly misleading, even for a Washington-based company. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: pixelm</title>
		<link>http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/2010/05/11/no-dmca-protection-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-44</link>
		<dc:creator>pixelm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 15:05:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/?p=199#comment-44</guid>
		<description>google&#039;s position is that the safe harbor protects everything - but that leads to the bizarre result that even if google knows about infringing content (and they did) - they don&#039;t have to do anything until they get a takedown notice. they even removed community flagging.  Viacom&#039;s assertion is that filtering allows content companies to identify what&#039;s allowed (white list), identify what&#039;s copyrighted (black list) and avoids the problems with notice and takedown - no access to &quot;private&quot; sections that allow unlimited friends - no ability to takedown prior to post (which allows sites to be flooded with hot copyrighted material for the period that matters) - and the like.  Viacom is pushing a fair result, which Google has actually adopted, and Viacom&#039;s approach would simply establish that sites that don&#039;t do this are wrong.  That&#039;s not such a heavy lift and totally consistent with the DMCA and Grokster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>google&#8217;s position is that the safe harbor protects everything &#8211; but that leads to the bizarre result that even if google knows about infringing content (and they did) &#8211; they don&#8217;t have to do anything until they get a takedown notice. they even removed community flagging.  Viacom&#8217;s assertion is that filtering allows content companies to identify what&#8217;s allowed (white list), identify what&#8217;s copyrighted (black list) and avoids the problems with notice and takedown &#8211; no access to &#8220;private&#8221; sections that allow unlimited friends &#8211; no ability to takedown prior to post (which allows sites to be flooded with hot copyrighted material for the period that matters) &#8211; and the like.  Viacom is pushing a fair result, which Google has actually adopted, and Viacom&#8217;s approach would simply establish that sites that don&#8217;t do this are wrong.  That&#8217;s not such a heavy lift and totally consistent with the DMCA and Grokster.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Burch</title>
		<link>http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/2010/05/11/no-dmca-protection-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-42</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Burch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 20:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/?p=199#comment-42</guid>
		<description>Kisai,
  I agree there should be some threshold by which the safe harbors do not apply. There are cases like &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grokster#The_history_of_the_case_in_the_U.S._courts&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Grokster&lt;/a&gt; where the courts held that a product whose intended purpose is to infringe can be sued. YouTube doesn&#039;t even come close to this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kisai,<br />
  I agree there should be some threshold by which the safe harbors do not apply. There are cases like <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grokster#The_history_of_the_case_in_the_U.S._courts" rel="nofollow">Grokster</a> where the courts held that a product whose intended purpose is to infringe can be sued. YouTube doesn&#8217;t even come close to this.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/2010/05/11/no-dmca-protection-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-41</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 20:03:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/?p=199#comment-41</guid>
		<description>The problem is that the media companies don&#039;t know what they have the rights to.  Numerous clips in the Viacom filing were actually UPLOADED BY VIACOM.  If Viacom can&#039;t figure out which of its material is up there legitimately, how is google supposed to figure out which material from every copyright holder in the world is up there legitimately?  Are they supposed to blanket ban it on watermarking/fingerprinting?  What about fair use?  It&#039;s insane to think google should sort this all out for them when they can&#039;t even get it straight for their own limited (in comparison to all copyrighted content potentially needing policing) catalogs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is that the media companies don&#8217;t know what they have the rights to.  Numerous clips in the Viacom filing were actually UPLOADED BY VIACOM.  If Viacom can&#8217;t figure out which of its material is up there legitimately, how is google supposed to figure out which material from every copyright holder in the world is up there legitimately?  Are they supposed to blanket ban it on watermarking/fingerprinting?  What about fair use?  It&#8217;s insane to think google should sort this all out for them when they can&#8217;t even get it straight for their own limited (in comparison to all copyrighted content potentially needing policing) catalogs.</p>
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		<title>By: Kisai</title>
		<link>http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/2010/05/11/no-dmca-protection-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator>Kisai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 20:01:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/?p=199#comment-40</guid>
		<description>Not a whole lot different than VeRO at eBay. Externally it&#039;s &quot;We take stuff down if you give us the right forms&quot; But internally it&#039;s &quot;It&#039;s between the seller and the rights owner&quot;, and it does work, however it&#039;s so extremely abused that the rights owner has to sue the infringer to keep it off. 

At some point you have to weigh the ramifications of attacking the very people who have bought the content. And to protest this, people popup with a new fake identity every week and repeat the same infractions at more expense to the host and copyright owners. 

Nobody wants to take responsibility for wasting time and money. Too lenient of DMCA safeharbor, and the infringers get away with damn near murder, and too strict leads to stories like this where there are either multiple copyright owners, or copyrights were obtained from mergers, and the lawyers sending out the DMCA takedowns don&#039;t really know what they are requesting to be removed at all. Throw in the copyright differences in various countries and you have something that is straight up money pit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not a whole lot different than VeRO at eBay. Externally it&#8217;s &#8220;We take stuff down if you give us the right forms&#8221; But internally it&#8217;s &#8220;It&#8217;s between the seller and the rights owner&#8221;, and it does work, however it&#8217;s so extremely abused that the rights owner has to sue the infringer to keep it off. </p>
<p>At some point you have to weigh the ramifications of attacking the very people who have bought the content. And to protest this, people popup with a new fake identity every week and repeat the same infractions at more expense to the host and copyright owners. </p>
<p>Nobody wants to take responsibility for wasting time and money. Too lenient of DMCA safeharbor, and the infringers get away with damn near murder, and too strict leads to stories like this where there are either multiple copyright owners, or copyrights were obtained from mergers, and the lawyers sending out the DMCA takedowns don&#8217;t really know what they are requesting to be removed at all. Throw in the copyright differences in various countries and you have something that is straight up money pit.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Clifford</title>
		<link>http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/2010/05/11/no-dmca-protection-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-37</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 17:01:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/?p=199#comment-37</guid>
		<description>Big media needs to get a clue.  YouTube removes content when they find it and are trying new ways to more efficiently find it. Big media needs to either get over it or get ready to be overtaken by independent content producers that don&#039;t need them now anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Big media needs to get a clue.  YouTube removes content when they find it and are trying new ways to more efficiently find it. Big media needs to either get over it or get ready to be overtaken by independent content producers that don&#8217;t need them now anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: TV Networks Don&#8217;t Want DMCA Protection For YouTube &#124; JetLib News</title>
		<link>http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/2010/05/11/no-dmca-protection-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator>TV Networks Don&#8217;t Want DMCA Protection For YouTube &#124; JetLib News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 17:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.lawdeveloper.com/?p=199#comment-36</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8220;A brief filed in the Viacom v. Google case asserts that the DMCA Safe Harbor provisions were never meant to apply to sites like YouTube. It also goes on to say the if safe harbor were given to these sites, it would put too big a burden [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;A brief filed in the Viacom v. Google case asserts that the DMCA Safe Harbor provisions were never meant to apply to sites like YouTube. It also goes on to say the if safe harbor were given to these sites, it would put too big a burden [...]</p>
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